Talk:Quest Guide Template

Multi-Level/Version Quest Guide
I think we need to come up with standardized template to handle "Multi-level" and "multi-version" quests. There are several that I know of, like Zaikhal Defender, The Blackmire Series, Harbinger (Quest), and Gaerlan's Citadel. The format we use for a quest writeup, especially with the new Quest Links format doesn't really work if we combine the write-ups, plus it gets very long and confusing when part of the quest is shared and other parts are unique (like Harbinger). I think its still a good idea to keep them on one page, but perhaps some way to standardize them would be good? Its actually relatively easy for quests like Zaikhal Defender and Gaerlan's Citadel, as you'll see I simply put the level requirement in the title, like Walkthrough (80+). But, for quests like Harbinger (Quest), where there really is no level requirement, and you could choose to do either version at any time, what should we do to organize this? I tried to clean it up a little bit, but right now I think that write-up is pretty messy. --Atarax 11:11, 15 January 2009 (CST)


 * I had more typed up, but I think it should all come down to this: If the different versions of quests share timers, they should be listed as a single quest. If their timers are unique, then give them each a page. My guess is that very few quests with multiple versions share timers. --An Adventurer 11:51, 15 January 2009 (CST)


 * That makes sense. So the next question is, how to we better organize those pages to succinctly display the two guides without repeating ourselves for the data that is shared between both versions? Maybe we create one Walk Through heading, then describe each section in order:
 * * Part 1: Harbinger Tunnels (All Versions)
 * * Part 2A: Harbinger's Lair (Hard Version Only)
 * * Part 2B: Essence Chambers (Easy Version Only)
 * Does that look like it would work? --Atarax 12:00, 15 January 2009 (CST)

Remove Detailed Walk Through Section?
I think we should also remove the Detailed Walk Through portion of the quest template. Nobody uses it, and when they do, its just repeated text from the Walk Through with a bunch of Dialog mixed in, which makes it a little hard to read. Anyone object? --Atarax 13:38, 13 January 2009 (CST)
 * There are a few quests that use it, I believe the reasoning was that anything that doesn't apply we just delete, and a template will generally contain the range of options. But I didn't add it, so they can probably give the reasoning better than I can. --Tlosk 14:52, 13 January 2009 (CST)
 * The reason for having it was to provide an area to have long detailed guides, like the step-by-step guide for navigating the dungeon in Aerbax's Prodigal Mosswart, or when I redo it, the riddles and such from Aerbax's Prodigal Lugian. The walkthrough section was meant for shorter guides - something that for the most part could be cut and pasted into parchments/books - where details are not listed, just the short objectives like go to 12.3s, 45.6w, enter dungeon, kill boss at end, loot item. --An Adventurer 15:05, 13 January 2009 (CST)
 * I see what you mean about the puzzles and riddles, etc... My only complaint is that it gets pretty long and difficult to read at some point, because usually you want the detailed how-to or resource information, even in the basic write-up.
 * I think we should try to limit navigating the dungeon to basic steps, and then if they need clarification, simply refer them to the map. In general, trying to navigate written instructions for a complicated dungeon is pretty difficult to start with.
 * Perhaps instead of a detailed walk through, we could have a Resources section on an article specifically for diagrams or resource tables like puzzles or riddles. This could come into play with the Harbinger Items resource table, as well as the Gaerlan's_Citadel resource table.  That way in the Walk Through, instead of listing everything right there, we can just link to the HTML Anchor for that resource.  This way the Walk Through stays concise but all the data is there for reference only.  This would also be a good for people who want to try to figure out the puzzle themselves, and not have it right in their face while they read the Walk Through.  Just a couple ideas, but what do you think? --Atarax 11:34, 15 January 2009 (CST)

Maps Section and Custom Table of Contents
I think we should remove the 'Map' section from the quest summary and always place them below under the Maps section, like Mukkir Aspect of Grael. Also, I think we should make the Images section standardized (include it in the template), using the template from Aerbax's Citadel. Thoughts? --Atarax 12:42, 2 January 2009 (CST)
 * Adding Images section to the template would be a good idea. Personally I like having the maps in the summary, partly because most maps are on acmaps so we can't include them in the body but primarily because when I go back to a writeup that's often the link I'm looking for right away and it's nice to have a standard place to look for the link. If most maps were hosted here I'd agree with having a maps section (we've approached Greeneye about the possibility and for a couple of reasons he only wants us to use links). I'd be fine with adding a Maps section the template though, so we can use it for new quests we are hosting the maps (if I stop slacking and turn around the stack of drafts I've got hehe.--Tlosk 13:01, 2 January 2009 (CST)
 * Even if the map is hosted at ACMaps, I still think it might be a good idea to list it under a Maps header. Sometimes the name of the Map is very long, and it causes the quest summary block to look pretty bad when it wraps around so much.  Also, seeing as how you created most of the maps, what's the harm of hosting them on the wiki as well as ACMaps?  The reason I ask is that the ACMaps website has been extremely slow in the past couple months, and sometimes non-responsive.  I'd hate to see it break or something and we lose all the maps! ;) --Atarax 13:50, 2 January 2009 (CST)
 * That sounds good, I hadn't really thought it all the way though, now that there will always be a Maps section, I can just zoom to that part. It's fine with me if we take it out of the summary block. Or maybe even how about adding a hotlinks bar to the summary that goes to the main sections? Since it's a fixed width block and we normally go NOToC on quest pages. Since these things can look different in isolation, I've temporarily modded Mukkir Aspect of Grael to show you what I mean. Since they are all links to standard sections, it would just be boilerplate that would get added to the base template and wouldn't need to be changed for different pages. History Link if read later.


 * As far as the ACMaps, I would love to host maps here. But Greeneye holds the copyright (even on maps I made myself) so unless he changes his mind we have no recourse. Back when this happened An Adventurer and I started working on a new map format just for the wiki (Greeneye didn't want us to use the ACMaps format either), but it has kind of stalled (I was working on a new mapping utility but haven't worked on it for a few months). Also there's a potential collaboration in the works for providing customized spawn maps, and depending on how that turns out it may provide some new directions for our dungeon maps as well. But as long as the maps are available at ACMaps it's kind of considered a low priority since we won't be providing new content, just more convenient content and it will be time consuming. At any rate you don't have to worry about losing anything, I've already made arrangements to avoid any losses whatever might happen.--Tlosk 14:27, 2 January 2009 (CST)


 * I just checked out the Mukkir Aspect of Grael, and I really like what you did there a lot. I think that should be the standard template for all quests.  Another reason why I think this is a good idea is for quests that have a lot of maps.  For example, I just finished the Brewmaster (Quest) write-up, and it has at least 3 maps.  Having them in their own section would be a lot cleaner then cramming them into the summary block, even if they're just links to ACMaps.  Good work! --Atarax 10:52, 3 January 2009 (CST)


 * I understand that, especially with multiple maps, the summary looks bad. But it might be an idea to bring the paragraph of Maps up higher? Some walkthroughs can become rather long, and as a user (not writer ;) )of the quest guides, I like to immediately do "right click-new tab" for the map, and then read the walkthrough. Then about images and such, is it possible to get a sub-template for adding images in the general template? like.. table like? Thx! Sanddh 2:07, 12 January 2009 (CET)
 * Thats why we added the quick links to the top of the quest template. They are anchors that jump to each of the specific sections, like so:
 * It might be a better/different idea to incorporate the actual Table of Contents into the page somehow. Maybe Tlosk can come up with something like he did for the creature template, like the  template.  Maybe we could do something like that for the quests as well instead of the  snippit? --Atarax 19:09, 12 January 2009 (CST)
 * I'm working on a couple options, and will post again when I'm done. --Tlosk 14:53, 13 January 2009 (CST)
 * I'm working on a couple options, and will post again when I'm done. --Tlosk 14:53, 13 January 2009 (CST)

Old Discussions
Maybe on the quest summary and on the quest listing page we could make Quest Type a link, and that would list all the quest types and what they mean. So there would be Solo, Solo/Small Group, Group, Large Group, Locked Fellowship, and whatever else there is. as for adding LP and levers to the summary.. I don't know. When we redid the template, this info got placed in the general info section, which is the first section. So, its only slightly easier to have that info in the summary. But then info in the general info section is pretty thin, it'd basically just be for listing prereqs. I could go either way. I guess it comes down to which area would we rather delete for quests that don't require it. And in that case, I would say leave it in general because we want the quest summaries to be more or less the same for all quests, while not having tons of N/As for simpler quests. --An Adventurer 10:57, 12 September 2008 (CDT)

I like that, that would be useful info to have in the summary. Perhaps we could add a third tag, instead of listing Solo/Group, change it to Solable/Group (in addition to Solo, and Group), perhaps that might make it clearer. And if pick is required, we can put the highest diff in parenthesis. Now that we have a pretty decent number of quest writeups I was planning on going through some of the older ones to clean them up a bit and I'll update any I go over with the new info. --Tlosk 19:15, 11 September 2008 (CDT)

I think we should consider adding 2 other sections called Lockpick Required and Levers, many quests state they require a group but really could be solo'd. While others on the other hand require a group because you must have more than 1 person to pull levers and yet others state they are solo but require lockpick. I think it's necessary to differentiate between those quests that must have a group and those that are just recommending one as well as those quests which absolutely require lockpick as it can be frustrating to start a quest only to find out it can't be solo'd.

Quick example:

--Sanguis 11:22, 11 September 2008 (CDT)

I'm using it for anything new that I write, and will gradually update the other quest guides I've written. --Widgeon 17:23, 7 August 2008 (CDT)

I am. --Tlosk 12:15, 25 July 2008 (CDT)

So is everyone ok with making Widgeon's template the new standard? --An Adventurer 10:49, 25 July 2008 (CDT)

I like that layout a lot Widgeon. It clears up all the issues I was having trying to think up a template that can work for all quests. For quests with multiple level brackets I suggest treating each one as a separate quest, and having the generic name page link to them all - even if the quests are basically the same just with different creatures. For example Olthoi Armor. While all of the pages and the generic name would be tagged with the quest category, only the generic one would be listed on the quests page.

--An Adventurer 11:24, 23 July 2008 (CDT)

Sorry I meant horizontal alignment rather than vertical alignment. --Tlosk 05:31, 23 July 2008 (CDT)

You can put at the place where you want the table of contents to appear. Some pages have, so that there is no table of contents. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words describes this, as well as and its variations. --Widgeon 02:21, 23 July 2008 (CDT)

I agree with adding an optional detailed walkthrough section, for a lot of quests there's some really interesting details that just don't fit in a simplified walkthrough that's easy to quickly follow. I wish you could manipulate the location of the ToC, maybe there's a way, I'll try to find out. For level segregated quests where they are radically different they should probably be treated as unique quests with their own pages (like the mukkir, shadow, and ruskck aspects of grael) but where there's minor variations I'd just sub number the steps to indicate variations. Perhaps like this:


 * 1) Talk to Corporal Liao Chen in Cragstone at 25.6N 49.4E.
 * 2) Run to the Monouga Feeding Pits at 9.8S 81.0W, southwest of Fort Tethana.
 * 3) The first intersection you come to divides the dungeon by level.
 * 4) Level 80+ go south.
 * 5) Level 120+ go east.
 * 6) Level 150+ go north.
 * 7) Optionally, ring the bell to summon an imprisoned Monouga from the Laboratory to the feeding pits.  This portals him into the feeding pits for an hour, and means there will be one less creature to fight in the Laboratory. The monouga drops 10 ribs that make atlatls when given to an Ivory Crafter. A Drudge Caretaker in this area drops the Large Bag of Food (10).

But I don't know, there's probably a better way to do it.--Tlosk 21:46, 22 July 2008 (CDT)

Most of the time when I'm doing a quest, I just want a simple, short list of the required steps, and direct links to the maps. The quick walkthrough is great for this, and I study the map to understand the path. It also serves as a good starting point for the page -- once the essential steps are there, you can fill out the details (rewards, lore & dialog, etc).

On the other hand, when I'm looking to try an unfamiliar quest for the first time, I like seeing the longer walkthrough with more of the details: The lore/rumors that guided you to the start, and what to expect along the way.

For example, why is it the southeast plate that you pick up in Blackmire 3? Why do you hand it to the south pillar instead of one of the others? How are you supposed to figure out that it's moonstone to get into Blackmire 1 (other than through trial-and-error)? Why do you fill the satchel with 3 bones?

I think a lot of quests are simple enough that they only need the quick walkthrough: Lalalas in My Head and Harlune's Diplomacy, for example. King Bobo is pretty good, but could use a few more details. I'm happy enough with how some of my writeups look: Monouga Laboratory, Tanada House of Earth (Quest), Helm of Isin Dule (Quest).

I'm still not happy with how Blackmire 3 looks.

I think the Frore writeup is good, and provides all the information you need plus direct links to the maps. But if I do this quest I'm going to reduce it to the following steps:


 * 1) Each person needs a Seal.
 * 2) Go to 66.1N 51.4E, near the Bandit Castle.
 * 3) Use the Seal to unlock the Bandit Castle Standing Stone and get a Bandit Rune Transcription.
 * 4) Go to 72.0N 22.0W, northwest of Stonehold.
 * 5) Loot a Stonehold Rune Transcription from the Stonehold Standing Stone.
 * 6) Use the Bandit Rune Transcription on the Neydisa Rune Transcription to get a Partial Rune Transcription.
 * 7) Use the Stonehold Run Transcription on the Partial Rune Transcription to get a Complete Rune Transcription.
 * 8) Give the Complete Rune Transcription to Kuyiza bint Zayi in Zaikhal at 13.9N 0.1E, to get a Geledite Standing Stone Translation.
 * 9) Give the translation to Mairisa bint Fuda in Plateau Village at 44.4N 43.4W, to get a Gelidite Treasure Key.  Enter the portal she summons.
 * 10) Enter the Mountain Cavern.
 * 11) Take the Lost City of Frore portal at the end of this dungeon.
 * 12) Go to the end of this dungeon and use the key to unlock the chest.

As for the rest of the template... I like having one image on the right side of the quest summary, and (optionally) more images in a different section later (such as in Lalalas in My Head.

I'd put the items after the short walk through, but before the (optional) long walk through: Walk Through, Items, Detailed Walk Through (optional), Images (optional), Lore & Dialog.

Perhaps an optional General section right at the start, to describe any other quests that you must have completed first to start: (i.e. Search for Lunnum, Lalalas in My Head, Bur Recall (Quest)).



General
<>

You must have completed Quest 1 and Quest 2 in order to begin this quest. Lockpicking is required for this quest. Lockpicking is optional for this quest, but makes it easier. You need at least two people/groups to pull the levers.

Walk Through
<>


 * 1) Go to 1.0N, 1.0E.
 * 2) Talk to NPC at 1.0N, 1.0E, near Town.
 * 3) Give the Quest Item to the NPC to get the Next Quest Item.
 * 4) Enter Dungeon (ACMaps link) at 5.0N, 5.0E.
 * 5) Make your way to the end of the dungeon, and enter the Boss Portal.  Beware of the dispell/spawn traps along the way.
 * 6) Attack the Boss.  If you hide in the corner/stay on the ledge/trap him below the ramp he can't attack you.
 * 7) Loot the Trophy from the boss.  It drops 14 per kill.
 * 8) Return to NPC at 1.0N, 1.0E, and hand them the trophy to get experience, a title, and a Great Quest Reward.

Items
<>
 * [[Image:Icon.png]] Item 1
 * [[Image:Icon.png]] Item 2
 * [[Image:Icon.png]] Item N

Detailed Walk Through
<>

<>


 * 00.0N, 00.0E - Location/NPC

<>


 * 00.0N, 00.0E - Location/NPC

<>


 * 00.0N, 00.0E - Location/NPC

<>


 * 00.0N, 00.0E - Location/NPC

<>

Images
<>

Lore & Dialog
<>

And finally, do you have any suggestions on how to handle quests with multiple level divisions? The Blackmire quests, Gaerlan, Monouga Feeding Pits, Monouga Laboratory are all like this. --Widgeon 18:39, 21 July 2008 (CDT)

Thanks Widgeon, nice work. By the way I sent a request to Gouru to add you to the admin list so you can make posts easier and that'll also give you access to the CSS page. You've been adding lots of great stuff and this'll make it a little faster to do things. It may be a few days though before you get added. --Tlosk 13:28, 21 July 2008 (CDT)

I don't know anything about that kind of coding, so for now I'll just stick the gray table in the template. What do you think of the rest of the template? We had discussed some ideas for changing the walk through section. For now I just went with the style I used on Frore. Do you think we need a quick guide section as well, above the detailed walk through? Should the placement of items be before or after lore/dialog? What about an image section?

--An Adventurer 12:59, 21 July 2008 (CDT)

I like the first one. The background sets it off from the rest of the page, much like how the table of contents are formatted.

But how about adding the following to MediaWiki:Common.css (the page is locked, so an admin would need to do this):

.quest-summary { width: 300px; border-width: 1px; border-spacing: ; border-style: ridge; border-color: gray; border-collapse: collapse; background-color: #F0F0F0; }

.quest-summary th { border-width: 2px; padding: 3px; border-style: ridge; border-color: gray; background-color: #F0F0F0; -moz-border-radius: ; }

.quest-summary td { border-width: 2px; padding: 3px; border-style: ridge; border-color: gray; background-color: #F0F0F0; -moz-border-radius: ; }

th.quest-summary-header { background-color: #D0D0D0; }

And then use something like this:

This way you won't have to edit all of the quest pages if you want to tweak the style again in the future.

--Widgeon 20:55, 20 July 2008 (CDT)

Going to replace the quest summary table with one of the newer styles. which one should we go with?

--An Adventurer 17:16, 20 July 2008 (CDT)

I think style 1 is the stronger one, and the lore/dialog section can be more maleable, having more description for quests with lots of dialog (perhaps broken into minisections with lines separating discrete interactions/phases). Perhaps adding another section with a ready to populate table for images, like here. Also a maps entry in the summary table where links to any relevant maps can be made. Also I've taken to putting a width on the table so that I can put a teaser image at the start. --Tlosk 03:59, 19 June 2008 (CDT)

style 2 can be created in a cleaner way using indents. For example, a piece of the Rytheran's Journal guide:

Go to Zaikhal and speak to Danira the Dusty at 13.9N, 0.1E, she tells you to retrieve a Master Seal in the Graveyard at 65S, 44W.


 * Danira the Dusty tells you, "Ah, you may be able to help me...
 * Danira the Dusty tells you, "Go search the crypts in that graveyard, and try to find Rytheran's lordly seal that will allow you into his Library...

Head to the Graveyard, once there, clear your way to the crypt located at 65.6S, 43.9W...


 * You allow Danira the Dusty to examine your Rytheran's Master Seal.
 * Danira the Dusty tells you, "Yes, this is the seal of Rytheran's that I asked you to find, but the seal itself does me no good...

From here, you must take the Master Seal to the statue located outside the mage academy... Looks like:

Go to Zaikhal and speak to Danira the Dusty at 13.9N, 0.1E, she tells you to retrieve a Master Seal in the Graveyard at 65S, 44W.


 * Danira the Dusty tells you, "Ah, you may be able to help me. I seek an artifact of the dread undead lord Rytheran. I think the ley line disturbances across the realm have opened up a gate into his personal library. There is some kind of gate that appeared within the old Mage Academy... But I believe, to enter it, you must have a seal of Rytheran's... A seal that my scouts have traced to a crypt in the Empyrean Graveyard in the Direlands. The graveyard can be found at 65 S, 44 W, but I do not know which crypt within its expansive grounds would contain the seal you need."
 * Danira the Dusty tells you, "Go search the crypts in that graveyard, and try to find Rytheran's lordly seal that will allow you into his Library. Enter the library through the gate near the Mage Academy and search for books. It may be too much to ask that the Book of Eibhil is still in there, but perhaps some journal of Rytheran's would help illuminate the trail to that terrifying artifact. In any case, please bring me whatever books you may find in there."

Head to the Graveyard, once there, clear your way to the crypt located at 65.6S, 43.9W, once inside you should see an ancient chest, open it and take the Rytheran's Master Seal (13 day pick-up timer).


 * You allow Danira the Dusty to examine your Rytheran's Master Seal.
 * Danira the Dusty tells you, "Yes, this is the seal of Rytheran's that I asked you to find, but the seal itself does me no good. As I told you, the gate to Rytheran's Library can be found near the old Mage Academy. The entrance portal to that dungeon can be found at 74.7 N, 18.5 E. Search for some new formation or artifact near that portal."

From here, you must take the Master Seal to the statue located outside the mage academy, the fastest route here would be to take the Neydisa Castle portal from Holtburg and run to the Master's Sentinel statue located at 74.7N, 18.4E. Once there, hand the Master's Sentinel statue your Rytheran's Master Seal and it will teleport you to the dungeon (the drop is safe).

edit: So this style would be used under the walkthrough section of my proposed template below. The quick numbered instructions would be under quick guide.

--An Adventurer 16:52, 18 June 2008 (CDT)

I based The Temple of Hizk Ri on the guide for Lord Rytheran's Journal. I actually prefer Style 1 though -- the walk through is shorter and easier to follow. Also, edit the pages and look at the source. All of the text and blockquotes for the dialog needs to be on the same line in Style 2, which makes it harder to edit.

For a detailed walk through I think we should avoid using a numbered list. --Widgeon 11:20, 18 June 2008 (CDT)

I'd like to decide on a single style when it comes to the dialog from quests.

Style 1: Search for Gareth Dain dialog and walkthru are separate sections.

Style 2: The Temple of Hizk Ri dialog is inserted in the walkthru but indented.

I like both styles. Style one gives you a nice, short, clear guide, but the dialog section is a bit confusing unless things are labeled clearly. Style 2 makes a quick cut and paste of the guide not possible, but it makes it much easier to follow the dialog. And having it indented makes it easy enough to skip over if you are just reading the guide. What does everyone else think?

One idea I had was to restructure the template a bit:

Quick Guide
Very quick numbered steps, with little to no explanation such as shortcuts to take. example:
 * 1) Go to 00.0N, 00.0E
 * 2) Enter Dungeon Name - [ACMaps]
 * 3) From drop, head left (west), straight (west), right (north).
 * 4) Kill Mini Boss. Loot Key.
 * 5) From Mini Boss head right (east).
 * 6) Open door.
 * 7) Kill Boss. Loot Reward.

Walkthrough
Walkthrough from style 2. Detailed intstructions with dialog included, indented.

Items
bulleted list of items from the quest

Lore
This would be used to explain the backstory of the quest, texts and dialog would not be here.

--An Adventurer 10:43, 18 June 2008 (CDT)